Themes: Christmas - A Time For Giving
COC: Rajj Malambaran, Shirley Hoe, Jayaram Menon, CK Loh
Hunt Date: 18 Dec 2010 (Sat)
Hunt Area: Klang Valley
Hunt Type: Half day motor treasure hunt
Entry Fees: RM 251.20 per team
Target to achieve: At least 15 teams and max 50 teams
T-shirt: No t-shirts will be provided, however all team members MUST wear either RED or GREEN coloured top.
There will be no briefing prior to the hunt. Instead, we will post the briefing notes in this blog on 12th December 2010.
We are also accepting cash donations which will be channeled to Pusat Jagaan Kanak-kanak Kurang Upaya KIRTARSH. We are calling out to the kind hearts of the hunters to be more generous to this worthy cause.
For additional information, please post a comment here and we will try to answer soonest possible. Also, you can email your query to:
lohcheekwan@gmail.com
info@purpleantz.biz
Eh, how come the entry fee is like that one? Treasure hunting also got tax one aaa..?
ReplyDeleteOh.... i just realised. The hunt fee is the reflection of the hunt title. It's cool, it's cool. :)
ReplyDeleteYes, indeed. The hunt fee is the reflection of the hunt title 2512. 2512 can be easily associated to Christmas which fell on every 25th of December in Malaysia.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we can afford to charge RM 25.12 per team or no one will be interested if the entry fees are RM 2512 per team. :-)
RM 251.20 per team is equivalent to RM 62.80 per pax.
Is the hunt still on because I see on the team list that you have only got 17 registered teams?
ReplyDeleteoon YS,
ReplyDeleteThe hunt is on. Briefing note will be send out tomorow. Please do send in your registration form, if you haven't do so. Thanks.
Thanks for the quick reply CK. Yes, I have registered. It is under Tan Yoke Peng (team 18)
ReplyDeleteFolks,
ReplyDeleteIt is a good hunt in my opinion, where clues are given ample time to be attempted, and quite a reasonably high percentage of scores for some tough clues.
For example, the clue below
Q26. Headless and without directions, it is bull!
Answer: BON SENS Beauty Aesthtics
Such clue normally classified as the clues exclusive for masters, however, we get 5 non-masters and 4 masters that broke this clue from total 14 teams. A very good percentage perhaps, especially, this is quite a long sector, quite difficult to 'tembak'.
I suppose I need to update more on result, statistic, Q&A and further updates, however, I am really exhausted to the core. I need to take some rest, and tomorrow in the early morning I will be outstation.
So, please bear with me for more updates. I will be back by Monday.
Also, there are still some very low scores for 1 or 2 teams, novice teams, new in hunt, however, these teams doesn't give up and attempted almost every clues with answers, although not correct one. Workings are every where. I think it is a matter of just not getting the hang of it.
I really hope this spirit can stay, and for further information on the explanation, as I believe the Q&A is done quite fast, please drop mail to
lohcheekwan@gmail.com
Once you get the hang of it, the clues will be easy nut to crack. Trust me.
I will reply your mails on the queries and to guide with further explanations where possible. But probably next Monday folks.
Good Nite!
CK Loh, I'm curious, whose was Q26? Was it Jay's? I'm guessing maybe not.
ReplyDeleteCK Loh,
ReplyDeleteI see your reply to my question on the sidebar, but for some strange reason, I'm not seeing it in this comment thread.
I'm a bit embarrassed that my guess was wrong, but I have a good reason for it. It's not always that I can find inaccuracies in Jay's Qs, you see. That's why I thought Q26 wasn't his. I will comment further later, perhaps this evening.
ckoh,
ReplyDeletePlease make your comments as you wish.
However, before you comment on Q26, you may want to refer for this article on wiki, if I get you correctly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit
Thank you, CK Loh. I have also sought permission from Jay himself to comment on Q26. He said he's looking forward to my comment.
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to understand why you've provided me with that wiki link, CK Loh, but I'll check it out later.
OK, the question as you've quoted here:
Q26) Headless and without directions, it is bull!
A26) BON SENS
First, let us all understand the significance of the word "it" in the question. I don't think there is any disagreement here - "it" must be referring to the intended answer which is found on the signboard, i.e. BON SENS.
Secondly, let us study the structure of the sentence. And we will quickly see that the form is like this:
CONDITION(S) => RESULT OF THAT (THOSE) CONDITIONS
In the Q, the first part of the sentence, "Headless and without directions" are the "conditions" or operations to be carried out on the "it" (the intended answer), so that the result will be "BULL". It is something like saying:
Unable to resist the dangling carrot, Anwar walks right into the trap!
Meaning,
[Because Anwar is] unable to resist the dangling carrot, Anwar walks right into the trap!
So in the same way,
[If "it" is] Headless and [if "it" is] without directions, it [then becomes] BULL!
Therefore, since the "operations" eventually end up at BULL, it is there that we should focus. I think it's fairly easy to arrive at the correct synonym if we had the benefit of seeing the available signboards within that sector. I mean, it should at least be possible to guess.
Anyway, we will soon find a promising candidate in BON SENS, and see the resemblance with the word NONSENSE which is a possible synonym of BULL. The only thing left to do is to figure out how to maneuver the operations to transform BON SENS to NONSENSE.
I'll post this first and continue shortly...
Arghhh!... I just made a long comment, and it all went missing when I tried to post it!... HAHAHA! Looks like I'll have to post it again! This time, perhaps I'll type it out elsewhere first and then cut and paste it here.
ReplyDeleteOK, here goes nothing!
ReplyDeleteQ26) Headless and without directions, it is bull!
A26) BON SENS
Once again, the "Headless and without directions" must be referring to the required operations on the "it" (the intended answer) in order to transform that answer into BULL or its synonym.
OK, let me try to post this... and then continue again...
It means,
ReplyDelete[WHEN "IT" IS] Headless and [WHEN "IT" IS] without directions, [THEN] "it" [BECOMES] "bull"
"Headless" means to take away the first letter from the "it", i.e. to take away the first letter of the answer. In this case, we should take away "B" so that we are left with ON SENS. That is the first part of the required operations.
Will post this first, and then continue again...
The second part of the required "operations" is a bit trickier.
ReplyDeleteFirst, let's deal with the word "directions". Here, "directions" refers to compass points, i.e. N (North), S (South), W (West) and E (East). So "directions" may be any of those letters.
"Without" in its literal sense means "excluding". So if we were to use "without" in its literal sense, it would mean that we have to exclude any of the letters N, E, W, S, from the remaining ON SENS, and then see if what remains can fit in with BULL somehow. But I think we can all see that we will end up at a dead end fairly quickly.
This would have been a possible way for me to argue against the solution by the setter. But when I was discussing another cryptic riddle some time ago, master hunter renroc pointed out to me another possible meaning of "without".
Will continue shortly...
Apparently, "without", as an old English word, has the opposite meaning of "within", i.e. withOUT vs withIN.
ReplyDeleteWITHIN means "inside of", as in:
WITHIN the boundaries = INSIDE OF the boundaries.
Whereas,
WITHOUT means "outside of", as in:
WITHOUT the boundaries = OUTSIDE OF the boundaries.
Will continue shortly...
Adopting the above meaning of "without", it is possible to read
ReplyDeleteON SENS without "directions"
to mean:
ON SENS outside of [any of] "N, E, W, S" (compass directions)
To get:
N-ONSENS-E
which is a synonym of BULL
Will continue shortly...
Except that, in my opinion,
ReplyDeleteON SENS outside of [any of] "N, E, W, S"
does not yield N-ONSENS-E, because that ON SENS did not go "outside of" the N and E. Instead, it went "inside of" those two letters.
That is, of course, how I analyse the clue, but I don't rule out that there is yet a subtle twist to the riddle which escapes me.
So, OK, all the big guns, you can start firing at me now... HAHAHA!
Sorry CK Loh, I tried to post longer comments, but was unsuccessful. So I had no choice but to post my comments in small portions, thus making them into many "comments".
ReplyDeleteI wonder why you separate it with various posts. Now I know.
ReplyDeleteQ26) Headless and without directions, it is bull!
A26) BON SENS
It can be divided into three parts. To solve cryptic clues, it is easier to break it to parts. I am pretty sure you can agree with this.
(i) Headless and
Headless = ON SENS
(ii) without directions
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/without
–adverb
9.
as regards the outside; externally.
without directions
= externally, directions
= externally, N,E (compass directions)
= when N,E are externally of ONSENS, then it is
= N ONSENS E
(iii) It is bull
It is bull
= It refering to (i) + (ii), aftermath of the operations
= NONSENSE is synonym of bull
(as per explained as the link above.)
Another way of explaining it, which Rajj put it on Q&A session
ReplyDeletewithout directions
= with out directions
out is adjective here, which describe directions are outside
CK Loh,
ReplyDeleteAs the CoC, of course you have the right. Whether right or wrong, we are here to discuss only.
I disagree with your explanation in (ii) above. Let me explain my position; and for clarity's sake, let me simplify that part of the riddle like this:
ONSENS without NE
Is that fair enough?
Now let me ask you these questions:
1) Do you at least agree that WITHOUT has the opposite meaning with WITHIN?
2) If your answer to (1) above is "yes", then would you say that when used in the same context, they would therefore give opposite outcomes too?
Now consider these two [simplified] versions of the clue:
A) ONSENS without NE
Your solution: N-ONSENS-E
B) ONSENS within NE
What is your solutions to (B), should it be [also] N-ONSENS-E? Or are you suggesting it should be ONS-NE-ENS?
Regarding Rajj's suggestion of a possible [alternative] explanation by reading a single word as multiple words of independent meanings, I have raised this subject before elsewhere. My reply is that I think that is a cheap trick, especially in light of your announcement that your Qs in this hunt shall not be the "hit below the belt" type.
ReplyDeleteI think it may be possible to read a single word as multiple words, but on the condition that the setter signals that possibility.
It, for example, the CoC asks for "BUTTERFLY" for the treasure, I would submit a BUTTERFLY. I don't think it is fair for the CoC to then say that actually he's expecting BUTTER and FLY, i.e. two items to make up a single treasure.
Will continue shortly...
Having said that, I have seen Jay's past Q in which the riddle was on reading the answer in separate components. However, in that case, he did signal his intention in the clue itself.
ReplyDeleteI can't remember the exact wording of the clue, but I think it had something to do with [partially] translating PUSHES into Malay. And the required answer was "TO LAKES". Notice that PUSH = TOLAK, and the ES in the clue was brought into the required answer undisturbed.
From the RiddleRaiders Blog, renroc gave something like:
Laroma split
He included the word "split" in the clue because he was playing fair. At least it signals to the solver that that word "Laroma" would have to be broken up into separate components, in this case into LARO and MA, thus yielding NASI LEMAK.
ckoh,
ReplyDeleteWhether it is cheap trick or not a cheap trick, does it really matter?
I think we have a different objective here. Your objective is to discuss / find the most accurate ways indicators can be used.
For what?
My objective is to made known (I try not to use the word educate), how indicators can be used in hunt to the novice hunters. One of the hunt objective of this hunt is to provide various scenarios to novice hunters how clues can be asked in actual hunt, so that they need not to go hundred of hunts to know most of the tricks, instead, one hunt can tell them as much as possible.
Whether it is a cheap trick, or not, it is still tricks that normally used in treasure hunt in KL. They most probably won't go to KK to hunt at this stage, so it doesn't matter this trick not used in KK. But it is used in KL in most of the hunt. For example,
HRU - S-HELL (Hunter's Challenge)
Kok Seng - FRI-END (GSC Hunt 2010)
Mike = S-TILL (one of his hunt)
and lots more.
WITHOUT and WITH-OUT, it means all the same, at least in KL Hunt context, unless one decide to hunt in KK.
Doesn't matter renroc use the SPLIT to be fair, he doesn't COCs hunt regularly in KL.
Again, I am really not interested to discuss what is right or what is wrohg. What we discuss here is about KL hunt standards
ONSENS, within NE
= N-ONSENS-E
ONSENS, without NE
= ONS-NE-ENS
ONSENS with,in NE
= ONS-NE-ENS
ONSENS with,out NE
= N-ONSENS-E
It is really where you put the comma is, that make the difference in treasure hunt standard in KL. I repeat this is not KK standard, but if hunters intend to do well in KL Hunts, this are the standard that they need to know. Where they put the commas will have different meanings and operations of the indicators. That is why sometime deletion indicator can means to add instead of to minus, it all depends where the comma placed.
Cheap trick or not, does it really matter?
CK Loh,
ReplyDeleteIt's my fault - sorry. Let me rephrase it - I meant it's unfair trick, maybe that is a clearer way to put it. And it has nothing to do with whether the hunt is in KK or KL. If it is unfair, it is unfair, period. If it is widely used in KL, then so be it. I have said, the CoC has the right to set as he pleases - even if it's wrong or unfair.
You speak of commas - that the placement of a comma would change the result of the clue. Yet you gave no comma in the clue. You are essentially expecting the hunters to GUESS that the CoC meant to have a comma somewhere in the clue. That is mind-reading you are asking for. But if that is KL style, let it be KL style then.
I have also said that if I knew that something is wrong or unfair, but when and if I hunt in KL, I will offer a wrong answer to "solve" a cryptic clue, KL style, but whether I agree with it or not is a different matter.
At least there is one thing good about this discussion. The next time Jay or Rajj or you sets a hunt, I will know that WITHOUT and WITHIN can be used to mean as container as well as containment indicators interchangeably. That is wrong, of course; and does it really matter that it is a cheap trick? Of course it does! But it is your right as the CoC. Fair enough?
You are suggesting Jay, Rajj and myself are WRONG. We can be WRONG of course.
ReplyDeleteWe are definitely WRONG in your cryptic book by using WITHOUT and WITHIN as a container as well as containment indicators interchangeably.
In the actual or right cryptic book, if there is SUCH A ONE, we may be WRONG or we may be CORRECT. I have received some emails by local reputable COCS, that just advise us don't bother this 'fella', as they told us there is nothing WRONG in our explanation
ONSENS without NE
= N-ONSENS-E
Again, I am not here to discuss what is WRONG and what is CORRECT. Is there such a thing? Follow which standard? ISO standard for cryptic clue? Got standard for cryptic clue one? ckoh standard? But he had to register his standard first, get recognised before expecting people to follow his?
What we discuss here is what is the CORRECT method of attempting Treasure Hunt Clues in KL mainly, and maybe Penang, KK maybe not. One of the COC sets grand slam hunt, the other COC is regular COC that has set not less than 5 open hunts in KL on 2010 alone and the other COC is among the most regular hunters around, that are hunting almost every hunt in the hunt calendar throughout Malaysia.
If they are not qualify to tell Treasure Hunter what is COMMON and CORRECT method of attempting TREASURE HUNT clues,
you think hunter that have not set a hunt in Peninsula Malaysia and hunt in a single hunt in Peninsula Malaysia for the pass two years can advise better?
Please follow his advise, when you hunt on his hunt, but if you use the same advise in KL hunts, you WILL NOT ABLE to solve clues in KL hunts. This is the audience objective, right, to discuss on the techniques to solve treasure hunt clues in KL. And also to pay less 'tuition fees' to be better hunter.
Let me repeat, we are not discussing what is the correct cryptic standard, or how WITHIN and WITHOUT is used. The audience here is not LINGUISTS, but they are TREASURE HUNTERS generally. Perfectionist LINGUIST can go to the LINGUIST blogs to appreciate more on the usage of the language.
TREASURE HUNTERS blogs are meant more on highlighting the tricks used in treasure hunting so that hunters able to solve such clues in next hunts.
And the method provided here is CORRECT in treasure hunting context.
If a 'fella' said it is WRONG, please check his credential first, how many treasure hunts he had take part to make on the last two years to make such a comment that this is the WRONG TREASURE HUNTING standard.
TREASURE HUNTING clues are not in perfect ENGLISH.
Every hunters know that.
TREASURE HUNTING clues solutions also are not in perfect English too.
Most hunters know this also, maybe ckoh not agreed.
Sometime it is really bother me a non-experienced treasure hunter go from blog to blog to teach people how to attempt treasure hunt clue correctly, but the fact is he is not hunting for years.
"We are definitely WRONG in your cryptic book by using WITHOUT and WITHIN as a container as well as containment indicators interchangeably."
ReplyDeleteMY cryptic book?
"I have received some emails by local reputable COCS, that just advise us don't bother this 'fella', as they told us there is nothing WRONG in our explanation
I can guess who are those "reputable CoCs" who sent in the emails to you. This "fella" won't attempt to challenge their reputation, of course! But you'd be surprised at how many of the KL hunters who don't agree with your usage of WITHOUT in this case.
It is strange that way up there, you said "Please make your comments as you wish", but when the comments came, actually they are not welcomed, huh?
"What we discuss here is what is the CORRECT method of attempting Treasure Hunt Clues in KL mainly, and maybe Penang, KK maybe not."
Actually, in KK too. Even when I know something is inaccurate, I will still choose that answer if it's the best in the sector.
Listen, CK Loh, if you and your cryptic books say WITHOUT = WITHIN; and IN = OUT etc, then let that be so. If something is "correct" because of common practice, then let it be so. I've said I can accept that, even if I don't agree with it. It has nothing to do with whether I've hunted for 30 yrs or 3.
Rgds,
The inexperienced hunter.
Let me make it clear here that I look up to Mr Jayaram as an accomplished treasure hunter and setter. I shall not pretend that I am in any way as good as him - far from it! If he says something is allowable in the cryptic books, then I would bet that that is indeed the case! I am not disputing that.
ReplyDeleteI have been doing a bit of crosswords myself, though admittedly my level is just novice standard. These are crosswords set by established setters.
In the course of solving those crosswords, I have seen, e.g. "He will never be an uncle" which refers to "ONLY CHILD" or "ONLY SON", but as pointed out, actually a man can still become an uncle when he is married to a woman who has nieces and nephews.
"Race event in which the last runner tries to be the first" refers to the "RELAY". But actually in ANY race event, ALL the runners would want to be the first to finish.
If those are the staples in crosswords, I will remember them, and will most certainly use them to solve clues. But I question their accuracy.
At one time the best minds in the world believed that the world was flat. But some inexperienced fella questioned that belief.
In an earlier posting, Cornelius mentioned :
ReplyDeleteThat is, of course, how I analyse the clue, but I don't rule out that there is yet a subtle twist to the riddle which escapes me.
Yes, there is another way to read this clue :
Headless and without directions, it is bull!
1st - IT must be headless .
2nd - "without directions,it" has 2 ways to be read : one is IT is outside directions and another is directions are outside IT.
The 2nd way is valid - because in cryptic debugging, the adverb( or verb) is applicable by subject on object and vice versa.
here the adverb is "without".
subject is "directions"
object is IT
so in the process of breaking the clue, the setter rightfully expects the solver to look at both alternatives.
This is considered par for the course in cryptic debugging.
I will compile examples and explain a bit more in a future posting at the cryptonites blog.
Many words have been "spilt" in the discussion. I'm sure both sides can pick up the pieces, reset the board and initiate fresh,fruitful discussions on other topics in the future.
Regards , Jay.
Thank you, Jay, for the explanation. I shall be duly guided. And thanks also for sharing your views, comments, pointers as well as encouragements via our private discussions.
ReplyDeleteWith respect,
Cornelius